August 22nd, 2019

This is a misunderstanding of our messaging. Please point to precise source saying that so I can get it fixed. AMP wants to be sufficiently complete so that publishers can choose to avoid maintaining multiple copies (outside of IA and Apple News) by publishing in AMP. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile

> Paired AMP was never meant to be the end state. (That’s why we’re now calling it Transitional mode in AMP for WordPress). blog.amp.dev/2019/05/01/amp… adactio.com/notes/15668 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

> Paired AMP was never meant to be the end state. (That’s why we’re now calling it Transitional mode in AMP for WordPress). blog.amp.dev/2019/05/01/amp… adactio.com/notes/15668 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

@pbakaus Please clarify! Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile

When I say “Google is now strongly encouraging publishers to only publish AMP”, I mean AMP pages without a corresponding regular web page. Cue semantic chicanery about AMP being regular web pages (spoiler: they are not). adactio.com/notes/15669 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

When I say “Google is now strongly encouraging publishers to only publish AMP”, I mean AMP pages without a corresponding regular web page. Cue semantic chicanery about AMP being regular web pages (spoiler: they are not). adactio.com/notes/15669 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

They definitely are regular web pages! Like there is literally nothing you could possibly argue that makes them not a web page. How do you define “regular web page” in a way that it could exclude AMP pages? Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile

Regular web pages don’t require loading a specific JavaScript file. adactio.com/notes/15670 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

Regular web pages don’t require loading a specific JavaScript file. adactio.com/notes/15670 Tony Haile Malte Ubl

What makes pages built with AMP less “regular” than pages built with e.g. Bootstrap or React in this context? Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

That’s just BS. If it is linkable and renders in web browsers is it a web page. Like. You can’t possible argue that this is not a web page tr.glbnews.com/08-2019/527817… Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile

The “requires external JS” file is something you might not think is great. Good news, this post blog.amp.dev/2019/08/07/fas… shows the path to that requirement going away soon. So, even if your definition is right (which it isn’t) it is soon wrong. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile

You don’t get rewarded by Google Search for building pages with Bootstrap or React. In. This. Context. adactio.com/notes/15671 Filip Stanis Tony Haile Malte Ubl

You don’t get rewarded by Google Search for building pages with Bootstrap or React. In. This. Context. adactio.com/notes/15671 Filip Stanis Tony Haile Malte Ubl

Are proprietary attributes like “amp” and “amp-boilerplate”, both of which appear in “Create your first AMP Page” (amp.dev/documentation/…), going away? Until then, it isn’t really a “regular web page”. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

What is a regular web page then? Are Angular web pages with the ng-app attribute web pages? angularjs.org Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Trek, Drugs & Jem’hadar

Nobody (I hope?) is arguing that web pages should default to being Angular SPAs, though. Yet you seem to be making something tantamount to that argument with AMP. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

I’m just saying: Web pages containing custom attributes is perfectly normal and doesn’t influence whether they are web pages or not. Whether you put an amp attribute on your HTML element or not certainly doesn’t change whether that document is a web page or not. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Trek, Drugs & Jem’hadar

Wow, that is certainly one strategy for attempting to sway people to your side! Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

I’m not arguing for any particular side except asking the legitimacy of the existence to be acknowledged. @adactio could just say “I disagree with xy and z” but instead he questions the right to exist. It leads to (certainly unintended) impression of fascism. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Jemal Cole - Amazon FC Ambassador Robot

Wow. You just called Jeremy a fascist for not liking the software you write. You should really think about that. Hey, if a site wants to stop using AMP, what’s the procedure for that? Malte Ubl

No, he is super free to not like the software I write. What he isn’t cool to do is to say: Web pages written using your software aren’t web pages. The answer to your question is documented here developers.google.com/search/docs/gu… Jemal Cole - Amazon FC Ambassador Robot

I know @adactio’s arguments outside of this conversation. I empathize and appreciate them. We had a very specific argument, and I felt very hurt by the line of argument. Jemal Cole - Amazon FC Ambassador Robot

Ah, that does make him a fascist then. Good call. Malte Ubl

When I’m hurt I rant and rave and call people names too. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Malte Ubl

Anyway, have a good one! Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Malte Ubl

To clarify: I’m not saying “use AMP above anything”, I tried to say that if you want AMP’s benefits, running just one site makes development and maintenance much easier. It’s of course totally possible that another framework is better suited for that site, and that’s OK! Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

Yowza! Far from questioning AMP’s right to exist, I want it to exist and compete on a level playing field—without being propped up by an unfair advantage in search results. Classic fascism, that. adactio.com/notes/15673

Yowza! Far from questioning AMP’s right to exist, I want it to exist and compete on a level playing field—without being propped up by an unfair advantage in search results. Classic fascism, that. adactio.com/notes/15673 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Jemal Cole - Amazon FC Ambassador Robot

Yowza! Far from questioning AMP’s right to exist, I want it to exist and compete on a level playing field—without being propped up by an unfair advantage in search results. Classic fascism, that. adactio.com/notes/15673 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Jemal Cole - Amazon FC Ambassador Robot

…but if you use any framework other than AMP, you don’t get any of the Google Search benefits that are only bestowed on sites “choosing” to use AMP. Hardly seems fair. adactio.com/notes/15674

…but if you use any framework other than AMP, you don’t get any of the Google Search benefits that are only bestowed on sites “choosing” to use AMP. Hardly seems fair. adactio.com/notes/15674 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

…but if you use any framework other than AMP, you don’t get any of the Google Search benefits that are only bestowed on sites “choosing” to use AMP. Hardly seems fair. adactio.com/notes/15674 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

So I take it that guy’s arguments and insults haven’t swayed you, huh? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith

I understand and sympathize with your point and it’s of course something Google Search is working on addressing. That doesn’t make mine less valid though - maintaining one site is still nicer than two. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

Yes, but publishing a site on the web is also nicer than publishing in Google’s ecosystem, with its ‘messaging’ Google pushes publishers in only one of those directions Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

What was misunderstood? Direct 2018 (!) conference quote: “We’ve seen so much success with AMP and the functionality has grown so much that we feel confident in saying that AMP is the right core technology to build your site with. And we’re already seeing this happen at scale.” Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

Can you elaborate on how Google Search will be addressing this? Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

Agreed! Maintaining one site is nicer than two. And yet publishers with already-fast sites (like The Guardian) are compelled to make AMP versions for the search benefits. That’s not a side point—it is THE point! adactio.com/notes/15682

Agreed! Maintaining one site is nicer than two. And yet publishers with already-fast sites (like The Guardian) are compelled to make AMP versions for the search benefits. That’s not a side point—it is THE point! adactio.com/notes/15682 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

Agreed! Maintaining one site is nicer than two. And yet publishers with already-fast sites (like The Guardian) are compelled to make AMP versions for the search benefits. That’s not a side point—it is THE point! adactio.com/notes/15682 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

and we both agree that needs to be fixed. An already fast site should ideally be able to stay with their current framework and get the same benefits. While web standard folks+Chrome/ Search devs are working on that, I’m working on the AMP-as-framework story, which is orthogonal. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

In other words, I completely get your point, and yet I think there’s need for higher level HTML frameworks on the web that make it easy to focus on creating content, as opposed to fighting bugs and perf issues. I’d like AMP to become a natural choice for that. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

It is not orthongonal as long as AMP is being privileged in search. This isn’t something you can just handwave away. The unfairness of it actively harms AMP-as-framework. adactio.com/notes/15687

It is not orthongonal as long as AMP is being privileged in search. This isn’t something you can just handwave away. The unfairness of it actively harms AMP-as-framework. adactio.com/notes/15687 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

It is not orthongonal as long as AMP is being privileged in search. This isn’t something you can just handwave away. The unfairness of it actively harms AMP-as-framework. adactio.com/notes/15687 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

Me too! I would love to get behind AMP—a declarative framework where configuration happens in HTML rather than JavaScript: great! But I cannot in good conscience support it while it is being unfairly prioritised and propped up in search. adactio.com/notes/15688

Me too! I would love to get behind AMP—a declarative framework where configuration happens in HTML rather than JavaScript: great! But I cannot in good conscience support it while it is being unfairly prioritised and propped up in search. adactio.com/notes/15688 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

Me too! I would love to get behind AMP—a declarative framework where configuration happens in HTML rather than JavaScript: great! But I cannot in good conscience support it while it is being unfairly prioritised and propped up in search. adactio.com/notes/15688 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

So, just to be clear, while you might be capable of the mental gymnastics required to think “Well, leaving aside the unfairness of the SEO situation with AMP…”, I cannot do that. I wish AMP would compete on its own merits. Do it. Please. adactio.com/notes/15689

So, just to be clear, while you might be capable of the mental gymnastics required to think “Well, leaving aside the unfairness of the SEO situation with AMP…”, I cannot do that. I wish AMP would compete on its own merits. Do it. Please. adactio.com/notes/15689 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

So, just to be clear, while you might be capable of the mental gymnastics required to think “Well, leaving aside the unfairness of the SEO situation with AMP…”, I cannot do that. I wish AMP would compete on its own merits. Do it. Please. adactio.com/notes/15689 Tony Haile Malte Ubl Paul Bakaus

👍👍👍 On it! Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl

A thing that shows how webby AMP is is seeing it inside Safari inside of Twitter. Google not involved, format benefits Twitter’s users. Compare to other formats that are mandatory-or-close to show up in other dominant platforms, but no 3rd parties can leverage/influence. Jeremy Keith Jeremy Keith Tony Haile Malte Ubl